Curse

Devil's Dictionary · Feb 19, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Since almost every item costs one gold when sold, the prices of everything are not limited. Why not to compile a list of MSRP for items?
How much do you think, for example, a vial of silver dye should cost?
Please post your ideas.

Gaile Gray · Feb 20, 2005, 04:19 AM // 04:19

This could be an interesting project. The economy ebbs and flows with every event, but I'm convinced that the actual market prices of some items is significantly different than what those chintzy merchants are offering me in Ascalon and Kryta.

Dragonne · Feb 20, 2005, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Regardless of the fact that someone in power seems to think used items are worthless, there should be a value scale set up based on item potential. For example, a sword with 2-3 damage (lowest possible AFAIK) should be 1g. With that as the base, the next progression would be any sword that does 4-X damage should be worth 2g.

I think this would be appropriate for all items and make people think twice before just salvaging anything they find. It would also help out the players that seem to have money problems (my ele/mes has a ton of $$, my war/nec seems to never have a dime to his name).

Ensign · Feb 21, 2005, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Max damage weapons with junk mods and upgrades: ~100
Max damage weapons with good mods and free upgrade slots: >10,000

12 Energy Focus, good attribute: 100
12 Energy Focus, good mods, good attribute: 1000+

15 Defense Strength shield: 50-100
15 Defense Strength shield, good mods: 1000+

Top upgrade parts, variable (+10 staff heads, +20% ED grips): 200-1000
Top upgrade parts, static/common (+4 armor grips, +1/-1 hafts): 50-100

Popular minor attribute runes: 25-100
Popular major attribute runes (expertise, fire magic): 250-500
Popular superior attribute runes (as above): 500-1000

Minor Vigor: 500-1000
Major Vigor: 2000-5000
Superior Vigor: 10,000

Rings: 75-150

Color Dyes: 20-40
Silver Dye: 75
Black Dye: 250

Skill Charm (popular, gamble-only): 100-250
Skill Charm (popular, can't be gambled): 1000+

Crafting materials:

Shells: 2-5 (no longer drop)
Fibrous Tangles: 10-20 (no longer drop)
Steel: 30-40
Silk/Linen: 250-500 (salvage only)
Pelts: 1000+ (no longer drop)

Not mentioned: <1 gold each

This is roughly what you saw for an educated, high level market.

Peace,
-CxE

Devil's Dictionary · Feb 21, 2005, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Although I am impressed by your thorough post, I feel to disagree about the price on raw materials. Most of those can be easily salvaged from items dropped by monsters, especially cloth (usually what I get).

Also, are you sure about dyes?
If yes, I was lucky to get two vials for 20 gold each, then.

Bobangry · Feb 21, 2005, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Making me think twice about using my rune of minor vigor or selling it...thanks for the list Ensign.

Viktor · Feb 21, 2005, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobangry

Making me think twice about using my rune of minor vigor or selling it...thanks for the list Ensign.

so you just gonna sit and admire it?

I got my minor vigor for 25hides FYI, so they aren't horribly expensive...... yet

Cicciro · Feb 21, 2005, 06:48 AM // 06:48

My guild mate posted a picture of 5 minor vigor runes (he had 7). They really seem common. I didn't play high level PvE to find out for myself... due to a certain character deletion last weekend that caused a terrible bug.

Bobangry · Feb 21, 2005, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viktor

so you just gonna sit and admire it?

I got my minor vigor for 25hides FYI, so they aren't horribly expensive...... yet

For this BWE, yes.

I plan on using it next one though unless I find/trade for a better one.

Ensign · Feb 21, 2005, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEATH AT THE DOOR

Although I am impressed by your thorough post, I feel to disagree about the price on raw materials. Most of those can be easily salvaged from items dropped by monsters, especially cloth (usually what I get).

Er, so what exactly are you disagreeing about? Every common crafting material is worth less than a gold per piece - the only ones that are worth more are the rare (silk/linen), and impossible to find. Materials are best dumped in bulk on the outfitters, as you aren't going to get more than 1 gold each anywhere else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEATH AT THE DOOR

Also, are you sure about dyes?

Absolutely. Dyes sold for quite a bit in Lion's Arch, especially the more valuable ones. Prices were of course lower in the newbie areas, simply because no one had any money. But besides orange and yellow, dyes are worth a tidy sum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cicciro

My guild mate posted a picture of 5 minor vigor runes (he had 7). They really seem common.

They're as common as any other minor rune in my experience. The difference between vigors and the other runes is demand - everyone wants the best vigor they can find. In reality major and superior vigors never hit the market, so you're just looking at bidding wars over the few minor vigors that do get traded - and they aren't pretty. I'm sure those prices will drop in time, but for three day events vigor runes are the standard carriers of value. Wouldn't be surprised to see major/superior vigors become a currency standard once gold becomes worthless - particularly if they stacked.

Peace,
-CxE

Devil's Dictionary · Feb 21, 2005, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Pelts: 1000+ (no longer drop)

Are pelts same as hides? If yes, I do think that 1000+ is too much.

Terphin · Feb 21, 2005, 01:56 PM // 13:56

From my understanding pelts are not the same as hides. And I would fully understand that price as they are extremely rare and hard to come by.

Devil's Dictionary · Feb 21, 2005, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terphin

From my understanding pelts are not the same as hides. And I would fully understand that price as they are extremely rare and hard to come by.

Oh, alright then. Thanks!

Xapti · Feb 21, 2005, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Shells: 2-5 (no longer drop)
Fibrous Tangles: 10-20 (no longer drop)
Steel: 30-40
Silk/Linen: 250-500 (salvage only)
Pelts: 1000+ (no longer drop)

Not mentioned: <1 gold each

Scales became much rarer this BWE, yet your forgot to mention them.

Cicciro · Feb 21, 2005, 02:56 PM // 14:56

I wouldn't be surprised once gold becomes useless that people will just be handing stuff around, or they will start trading runes and rings for weapons and shields and materials ect. I await that day with happiness. However, it seems that A.net doesn't want gold to become useless. It is still as hard as ever to get, but now there is so much shit to spend it on as a new player that it is overwhelming. Gold sinks for ID kits and bags are a terrible addition, oh well. The economy has to be balanced somehow. /scoff

Dragonne · Feb 21, 2005, 05:19 PM // 17:19

With the price list given by Ensign, there's going to be two groups of players in GW, the Have's and the Have-Nots. If you don't start with a group that has tons and tons of items and gold to begin with, you will struggle for every little thing through your entire experience. Even farming becomes worthless because the group with a ton of (insert rare item here) will sell below what you want/need for your one (insert same rare item here).

Yes, it's a semi-real economy, but those players that set prices for things based on their experience alone will be doing the game itself a disservice. Extremely high prices devalue the base currency making it worthless, and trade becomes commodity trade (akin to Diablo2 and the hell of needing unique items for currency, the SoJ for example, that people even list thier costs in). Casual players will be left out in the cold (again).

This isn't so much about me and my experiences as it is about the community itself. I pretty much get what I need when I need it, but usually don't have any reserve to work with, which is no big deal to me actually. I've just heard many, many complaints about (for example) dyes costing 30+ gold at the dye trader while some guild has 500 dyes laying around and won't sell them off to bring the price down.

Setting price limits at the traders that work off supply will fix this problem. The game's traders have no concern for demand only supply. Remember, low prices increases quantity sold and often profits, simple economics. If you can't sell at a high price, lower your price and sell MORE of them item to make up the difference.

Ensign · Feb 21, 2005, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terphin

From my understanding pelts are not the same as hides. And I would fully understand that price as they are extremely rare and hard to come by.

Pelts are most assuredly not hides. Pelts were a rare drop from the various Charr - you'd see one for every 500-1000 or so Charr killed. Note that this is past tense - pelts were one of the casualties of the new drop system, making every pelt in existance a holdover from the previous BWE. Even back then they were worth several hundred each - given that they're a consumable that no longer spawns, their price tag is completely justified.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xapti

Scales became much rarer this BWE, yet your forgot to mention them.

Right, scales no longer dropped en masse from all of the drakes / blighters and that kicked up their value into the noteworthy, 2-5 gold range. They weren't really high enough demand to go much higher, and they are reasonably common salvage.

What's amusing is that bones are technically less common than scales now. Of course they're still garbage since nothing uses bones, but it's noteworthy to demonstrate just how out of whack crafting materials are now.

Just to run down the list, in rough order of value:

Wood - just ditch it for 1 gold per piece as fast as you can.
Iron - absurdly common, everyone has more than they'll ever need.
Granite - fairly common, low demand.
Cloth - high demand, high supply. Might actually be worth 1 gold. At least for a couple more weeks.
Hides - ""
Bones - not too common anymore, but who actually wants bones?
Glittering Dust - shadows were the main source of dust, so we're just stuck salvaging chalices now. Demand isn't particularly high, though.
Shells - not terribly important, but the fact that they no longer spawn is pretty relevant. Material trader already saturates the market, though.
Scales - uncommon salvage material, fairly high demand. 5-10 isn't too out of line.
Parchment - uncommon salvage material (expert kit on elementalist foci), reasonable demand, at least as long as people like having sexy tattoos. 5-10 gold each.
Fibrous Tangles - I guess the linen crafter exists somewhere, but tangles don't actually spawn anymore so I don't know that it matters. At least the vendor has a bit of a backstock to manufacture linen.
Feathers - only available from air wands now. Required for every Ranger charm, these are fairly valuable but they're niche enough that the price never got out of hand. 10-20 gold each, simply to fund the charm trade.
Steel - high demand, but the fact you can craft it caps the price at 60. Enough comes from salvage to drop it into the 30-40 range on the open market.
Linen - 100 or so - milk the backlog of tangles for all it's worth if you want linen, you aren't going to get any otherwise.
Silk - Mind Spark Garb is the only reliable source I know of, plus it's high demand (Regal, among other armors). You're a fool if you sell it for less than 100 each, and it's likely worth a whole lot more.
Pelts - what can I say? They never spawned in appreciable amounts, and since they aren't generated any longer their price is just going to keep going up. I don't even know that taking gold for one is a good idea.

Then there are a bunch of old/dead/useless materials, like ectoplasm, cotton, and monstrous fangs. Someone might want one as a novelty, but they're worthless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cicciro

Gold sinks for ID kits and bags are a terrible addition, oh well. The economy has to be balanced somehow. /scoff

Neither of these really address problems with the economy, however. Bags? Those are a one-time cost. Any farmer worth anything can crank out 100 gold inside of 20 minutes without even thinking. Making people buy bags gives you maybe a day, tops, before they become irrelevant.

ID kits are a bit more subtle - they don't significantly impact the gold economy, but they do hit the upgrade component economy. It's pretty straightforward, actually - you don't bother identifying 95% of the items you find, because they're heading straight for the salvage yard anyway. The only things worth an ID are rares, or at least bright yellow items - stuff that has a decent chance of being useful, or at least yielding something valuable in salvage. There spending 5 gold is a joke - 5 gold for a major rune or a max damage sword? Whatever, it's just another minor inconvenience as the money rolls in. The real hits are on low level characters, who are still trying to scrape together money for armor sets and can't just be throwing away gold on expenses like that, and upgrade components, since people no longer can tell which random junk items they have that might yield an upgrade part - and it certainly isn't worthwhile to identify everything.

Basically, when you're getting 1 crafting material per salvage a kit is really just compacting your wealth, but when you're getting half a dozen iron per salvage the money is just rolling in, and a couple speedbumps aren't going to stop that.

The solution to this of course is variable salvage costs, not further annoyances like indentify kits. You want to pull the money out at the top, after all, not the bottom.

Peace,
-CxE

Sleeky101 · Feb 21, 2005, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Had 7 when the game when down, here is the picture with 5:

Since gold is basically endless (1.2k + various minor runes/rings handed throughout the guild just by doing seaboard), I soon see vigor runes becoming the SoJs of GW. Every character worth anything needs one, although minor vigors probably won't become the economy once superior/majors become more avaliable.

Another problem right now is you can't really "buy" anything amazing. It usually gets traded away to a guild mate or used and never enters the economy.

Ensign · Feb 21, 2005, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonne

Even farming becomes worthless because the group with a ton of (insert rare item here) will sell below what you want/need for your one (insert same rare item here).

Well, it depends on what you mean by 'rare' item. If you're talking about top rares, yeah, a single person trying to pharm manually is never going to be able to afford one. A competitive guild running pharmbots is going to be able to throw orders of magnitude more resources at the few rarities that come up, and anyone without that sort of backing is left out in the cold. Grinding out gold is useful for buying commodity level goods, but not much more. If you just want a +12 focus or max damage sword you should be able to get one just fine, but that focus with daze immunity? You either have to get lucky and get it from someone who doesn't know what it's worth, or find it yourself, because you're not going to get that in an open market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonne

Extremely high prices devalue the base currency making it worthless

Currencies are inherently worthless - they're based entirely on people's faith in their value. People don't want U.S. dollars because they're particularly desirable in the abstract - they're just in demand because other people will happily trade things that you actually do want for them.

The same goes for gold. It's valuable until people decide that it isn't - there isn't anything in the game that makes people care about gold once you hit a high enough level. Add to that the fact that is accumulates like crazy, and you have a situation where people, at least situated traders, are perfectly willing to throw their bankroll at anything that actually looks worth using.

So I guess the point is that you're confusing cause and effect. Gold isn't worthless because of high prices - prices are high because gold is worthless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonne

I've just heard many, many complaints about (for example) dyes costing 30+ gold at the dye trader while some guild has 500 dyes laying around and won't sell them off to bring the price down.

Why should a guild with 500 dyes bother selling them off? The merchant's pricing algorithms don't exactly encourage this - sure, buying a dye at a trader might run you 30 gold, but if you go to sell one to him? 2 gold. Why should I even bother when prices are like that? My only motivation to sell is to free up inventory space.

Besides, it isn't even like 30 gold is very much money. You can afford a full set of basic color dyes off of a single sweep of Seaboard. It isn't like prices where that high just to taunt players - people were paying that for dyes, and eagerly I might add.

See: Gold Doesn't Matter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonne

If you can't sell at a high price, lower your price and sell MORE of them item to make up the difference.

The difference here is that, for a trader, the supply is fixed. Normally when tweaking supply/demand curves, a seller can increase supply to meet demand at a lower price, thus maximizing profits. But when supply is fixed, you don't slide around on the curve at all - you just take the highest price you can get at that supply and run with it. Sure, there's a higher demand at a lower price, but *you can't meet that demand with the supply you have*, so lowering the price has no effect on quantity sold.

Again, the assumption here is that the dye trader wasn't selling dyes at the listed prices. They most certainly were. In fact I'd go so far as to say that dyes are a new character's best friend, since they can be sold in town for a ton of gold, which can be used to buy needed equipment upgrades. I don't even want to guess at what these people would say when they see the price tags on level 20 armor pieces. After dropping a few thousand on a suit of level 20 armor, you'd think that scrounging up a couple hundred to dye it would be an aftertought.

Peace,
-CxE

Vermilion Okeanos · Feb 21, 2005, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Silk/Linen: 250-500 (salvage only)

Actually... Linen STILL can be made by plant fibers... They just simply change the location where you can make it. (It is now at nebbo village west of ascalon settlement in kryta, no.. not at that watch tower map point...)